Get Out As Much Content As You Can with Robert Nissenbaum

Why should your small business value writing as part of its marketing efforts? In this episode of the second season of the Launch With Words Podcast, Bridget is joined by writer Robert Nissenbaum for an insightful conversation on why small businesses should consider writing as part of their SEO efforts.

Follow Robert Nissenbaum at @RNissenbaum on Twitter and check out his company website at tso.media.

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Transcript

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02:23.27
Bridget Willard
Hey, thanks everyone for turning in season 2 episode 4 with my friend, writer, SEO consultant, and kayaker Robert Nissenbaum. Welcome to the show, Robert. So um. It might be that you're muted. It happens. It happens. It happens. Yeah, ah hey it happens. Ah you know it. This is technology is not always easiest thing. But you know.

02:43.26
Robert Nissenbaum
Oh there we go I wasn't muted a few minutes ago. Ah.

02:58.25
Bridget Willard
We live with it. It's it's working for us remote working writing um. Hey can you tell a little bit about yourself and what what motivates you to the audience?

03:07.96
Robert Nissenbaum
Ah, from a writing perspective I've been writing for thirty some odd years. I've been published forever in some form or another. First real thought as to this being something I was good at was back in college. So would have been like 87 where I -- first week and on campus ended up reading something as like oh no and sent a quick letter to the editor to the yeah school newspaper was immediately asked to start writing for him and just kind of went from there.

03:41.50
Bridget Willard
Nice. So ah, you've been writing a lot for your clients and small businesses for you know, a lot a long enough amount of time that we probably shouldn't be telling people.

03:55.69
Robert Nissenbaum
Um.

03:59.60
Bridget Willard
But it's definitely longer than me and um, what do you think small business owners kind of miss when it comes to content on their website?

04:12.31
Robert Nissenbaum
They're not putting any on it. I mean I. I mean they're just missing it all together. Um.

04:20.43
Bridget Willard
Concisely put by Robert Nissenbaum. Thanks for watching everyone. No for real. Like because people talk to me a lot about Launch With Words and duplicate content. I'm like you know what's worse than duplicate content? No content. Waaka Waka Waka

04:22.54
Robert Nissenbaum
Are.

04:29.95
Robert Nissenbaum
Exactly so and I think they get worried about having saying the same things over and over again or having repeated sections on websites. Google doesn't necessarily penalize you for having the same content in multiple places as long as it's at all perfectly verbatim.

04:48.23
Bridget Willard
Yeah.

04:49.70
Robert Nissenbaum
Um, you know you're you're going to be more penalized for not having anything up there. Um I've done a few experiments with websites even mine I haven't read anything in 2 years and basically it just drops off the face of the earth if you don't um you know and even if it's not great content.

04:53.49
Bridget Willard
Exactly.

05:01.49
Bridget Willard
Yeah.

05:07.17
Robert Nissenbaum
Content alone added on a regular basis will improve ranking. So it really is that it's getting as much content out as you can or.

05:12.12
Bridget Willard
Yeah.

05:18.11
Bridget Willard
I Know even for my blog and I've been spending more time on this podcast and writing my Launch With Words blog posts that don't go on my website you know? And I'm my traffic is terrible right now and it.

05:32.27
Robert Nissenbaum
On.

05:35.37
Bridget Willard
That's exactly what happens. I have high quality articles but I haven't been giving that cadence. So like why is that important? Like can you so explain why it's an important raking factor?

05:46.30
Robert Nissenbaum
Yeah, so think about adding content as um and I like to look at this from like perspective of a you know leading scientist sort of thing. Um, if I'm the foremost leading expert in my field and I suddenly disappear off the face of the earth for 2 years. I don't write anything. I don't publish anything. I don't do anything. Um, do you know if I'm still an expert in what I do, I could be out in a hermit in the middle of the woods and haven't looked at a scientific book for those 2 years. You wouldn't know that I'm still doing research and everything else on the side. And as things change and, as you know, data changes and we get new information out there. You have to keep up with this stuff and if there's no indication that you're keeping up with what you're doing, you're going to fall off rankings. Because everything is about credibility and authority and if you're not writing, if you're not putting out information, and and not demonstrating that, you're not going to rank.

06:46.79
Bridget Willard
Exactly. I mean this is how I met you when I was riding for Riggins Construction back in 2009 because ah, the reason why I do is I wanted people to know we were still in business. Because everybody was shuttering their doors around us after that housing crisis. Um. And and you know when people are looking at your website and um, you haven't published anything -- if they even find your website -- you haven't published anything that's kind of a problem. But what about like the validation part? Like so discovery. Discovering that business. Discovery and validation are two sides of the same coin and in lead generation and word of mouth. So when you you found a, you found a business right, because so and so Allison told you to to hire this roofing company. You go to their website, and it's not answering any of your questions.

07:42.59
Robert Nissenbaum
Well and that becomes a big thing. There's this level of, you know people. It's like we used to turn around and I remember my mom would just turn around and call up her friends and say hey who do you recommend for this who do you do for this?? um and she get off the phone and make a phone call to that Business. Um. Even now the same thing on social media. People will recommend 3 and 4 and 5 different businesses. But that doesn't mean anybody's going to simply just call them right away. What I tend to find is that people will do their own due diligence once they have that recommendation. They're going to go over to a website. They're going to look up their social media profiles. They're going to look for something that validates what they've just been told. Great; my Best friend told me this and hire this company but I go to their website and it doesn't work like they've been in business for 10 years, I don't think so. Right? If It doesn't look like they can actually do what I'm I'm asking for what my friend recommended them for I'm going to be leery about hiring them I've had you know roofing companies do the same thing. Well if they specialize in flat roofs, and that's what they're being recommended for, but there's no content on their website showing anything that they know what they're doing about flat roofs or with them I'm probably not going to hire them. At least need to I at least give me something that says you understand my problem.

08:54.68
Bridget Willard
Right. Yeah I mean be like going into a bank. I remember the first time I went to a Chase branch that didn't look like a bank anymore. I want the tellers. I want to tell our windows. I want to see the vault otherwise it looks like a storefront that's for money laundering like there's a trust issue. I I want. I never forget I walked in there I was like and there's just people like you see them at desk and there's like these little Kiosk for ATMs and I'm just going is this a bank? And even my credit my credit union down the street.

09:17.85
Robert Nissenbaum
Ah.

09:31.19
Robert Nissenbaum
Right.

09:36.76
Bridget Willard
Credit Human they don't have tellers like that. They're not all lined up and I just go like can I deposit money here? I mean what is happening? There's a trust factor. How important is that? I know it's part of the authority. You know the expertise authority trust I know that's part of Google's thing but Google's thing is because of human behavior. So can you like talk a little bit how those words on your website contribute to trust in business?

10:05.94
Robert Nissenbaum
Well, um, that's just it I mean Google's entire search rank I really believe is based around how we would search as human beings. You know old school sort of thing right? They're trying to duplicate the same thing. Um. And understand how we think. That's where the AI is coming from That's why they're looking for more long, um, long tail keyword phrases as opposed to specific words. We search we ask questions about hey we're looking for this. Um we don't go up to our friends and say you know, "roofer Chicago." Right? Right. And even if you do then they're going to ask for more questions. Okay, what do you need before I can recommend the roof or to you I need to know are you looking at replacing a roof repairing your roof, have you had problems before right? All of these things which go back into your search history. So yeah, and as far as the Trust piece of it, It's just that. I think we get too worked up and that we have all right read all these keywords are on there and I've got here but I don't have any sense of who you are as individuals. I don't it doesn't look like you're active again. That's going to having old content. Websites can be found, but if they haven't been updated in 10 years are you still in business? I'm not really confident that you are. Um and not seeing new pictures posted anywhere. I'm just, it's just a name. And even what you have on the website are you simply giving me technical stuff.

11:15.40
Bridget Willard
Right? right.

11:30.78
Robert Nissenbaum
Need you this this and this I need you this or you having a conversation with me and I think that's when we get back to what our business is missing in terms of content aside from not having any content, the content they have is this all technical bullet pointed list as opposed to talking to their clients.

11:33.19
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah.

11:47.33
Bridget Willard
Yeah, like what the hell is a modified bitumen roof? I thought I had a flat roof right? So I mean we had this a big time problem when the pandemic hit and now all of a sudden. Everybody's looking at restaurant websites just see (a)if they're open.

11:48.69
Robert Nissenbaum
Customers.

12:01.83
Robert Nissenbaum
Yep.

12:05.83
Bridget Willard
And (b) if they still have a menu? Like just having updated information ah is really important.

12:11.65
Robert Nissenbaum
Yeah, and it's not difficult I mean. We get I think people also get hung up with us. Well it needs to be you know X number of words and it needs to be this and needs to be this. Yeah in an ideal world, it's mostly long-form content. It's well written. It's properly edited. It's properly formatted. It meets all the little, I mean for anybody still using Yoast, it meets all the little green dots. That's what this like and people get so worked up this so it doesn't mean it does. It doesn't matter right.

12:35.32
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah.

12:44.68
Robert Nissenbaum
300 words, even less sometimes is enough. It may not help rank, but it does help when somebody gets to your website to offer that credibility. And even if those are updated and I have it's funny I have people turn around.

12:53.76
Bridget Willard
Like a FAQ like a frequently asked questions.

13:02.10
Robert Nissenbaum
Just have these list of questions. Why isn't every one of those questions just a simple blog post that can individually be shared. And it doesn't take much. It's again and if you have 1 blog post that you simply keep updating on a regular basis, it eventually becomes long form.

13:04.70
Bridget Willard
Exactly exactly. Ah.

13:15.24
Bridget Willard
Um, yeah, exactly and they're just speaking of that like you're saying sharing. Um so having links on your website and like taking that FAQ page and then maybe you even you repurposing it as blog posts gives you something to share on social media. How much does social media play into SEO? Like a lot of times business owners don't care about a blog but they care about SEO, and I'm like words is SEO -- SEO is words -- and I use the wrong form on purpose.

13:47.52
Robert Nissenbaum
Well, I well I think it gets confusing because everybody hears SEO and thinks Google; when the SEO is search engine optimization and at this point Facebook.

13:50.37
Bridget Willard
Because it's funnier.

13:54.25
Bridget Willard
Right? right.

14:04.63
Robert Nissenbaum
Instagram. LinkedIn. Twitter. They're all search engines. We are looking exactly so any bit of content that you put out there will help you be found. It's a matter of where you be found where where you're going to be found. Um, so yeah, anything that you can create that allows you to share content.

14:07.52
Bridget Willard
What about Alexa and Siri?

14:24.21
Robert Nissenbaum
You may never come up in a Google search, but that doesn't mean you won't be located. Right? If I'm searching and I find an article on Facebook, great. And again E.A.T. All those individual articles. Especially Twitter articles get indexed. So anything you you can create that's shareable is.

14:27.72
Bridget Willard
Yeah.

14:38.30
Bridget Willard
Yep.

14:43.80
Robert Nissenbaum
Is perfect. I mean and I think at this point most people don't read full, long-form articles. Anyway.

14:47.41
Bridget Willard
No, because you're sitting there watching a movie and you're like dang how old is Jerry Seinfeld? And you go< hey Alexa how old is Jerry Seinfeld?" You just want the answer.

14:55.28
Robert Nissenbaum
Yeah yep, and I you know so I think we get this rate. So if I can't do these long form articles I don't have this time I don't have it don't put out anything. Um you know I think half of my articles I've started writing on my.

15:05.69
Bridget Willard
Yeah.

15:12.32
Robert Nissenbaum
Personal website have really been just these short little micro-blogs. You know they'll be 300-400 words it's just a topic I can't really do anymore. It's fine.

15:22.16
Bridget Willard
Yeah, so when a small business owner is like, "okay, fine Bridget. Okay, fine Robert. I get it I need to have words I don't have time for this crap. I need to hire somebody." How did they find somebody that actually like we know a writer is not a writer is not a writer. Okay. You don't want somebody who does who has wrote wrote their thesis for a PhD. That's not writing for the internet. How do these small business owners go about finding a writer?

15:50.46
Robert Nissenbaum
Ah, um, it you know over been doing their own search?

15:57.68
Bridget Willard
Yeah I mean like how like what's a way to find like for example, like I could you know Betty could tell me about this roofing company like you were saying, but if but if I want it for my commercial property and they don't do that. Right? Or vice versa like we used to get a lot of people coming to us for apartment communities and we don't do them. You know? So it's like there's just because it's a roofer or just because it's a nail salon. Maybe they don't do dipping. Maybe they only do shellac. Right? So.

16:30.97
Robert Nissenbaum
One of the easiest things, is if you if you that serious even a basic search. The ideas that as writers if I can't write something for somebody, if I don't have that skill set, if it's not something I would normally do I'm going to refer somebody else out. Right? i'm.

16:44.47
Bridget Willard
Right? But I mean I mean is it ah like what would you suggest would be the phrasing of the search? I guess is the question I'm asking.

16:53.70
Robert Nissenbaum
Okay, if we're going phrasing as much details you can um, "content writer for" and you know the type of article you want. It's a technical article. It's um, you know or even in industry you're in.

17:04.10
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, "content writer for nail salons." Um, yeah.

17:11.30
Robert Nissenbaum
Right? Or for sustainable-based businesses or environmental-based or. You know? The more information you can put into that search parameter to pinpoint what you're looking for the more likely you'll get a close match and then anybody at that point send an email.

17:24.60
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah.

17:30.54
Robert Nissenbaum
Once you reach a contact page reach out. If it's again, if it's something they're unable to deliver, they're probably tapped into somebody who could deliver it.

17:38.54
Bridget Willard
Yeah, "content writer." That's a perfect phrase because ah only copywriters are going to use that to describe themselves right? You're not looking for somebody to write your college essays on the down-low in a Reddit.

17:45.47
Robert Nissenbaum
Ah, right.

17:51.10
Robert Nissenbaum
Um, maybe you are but yeah.

17:58.20
Bridget Willard
I'm not saying exists but it exists. Ah so um, well, that's funny but it actually I know people have done that not me I just have a Bachelor's degree. So um, are there any.

18:10.28
Robert Nissenbaum
No.

18:15.10
Bridget Willard
writing tools that you would recommend for small business owners to kind of help them get this stuff right? I mean I know there's not a lot of Grammar Nazis out there and people don't even and read on the internet; they scan. But like what are what are what are some tools you would.

18:18.12
Robert Nissenbaum
Wow. Mr.

18:32.00
Bridget Willard
You know, suggest?

18:32.71
Robert Nissenbaum
I You know I think the biggest one is just write. Don't worry about what it says um you know and it doesn't matter how organized or whatever it seems to be just write. And once it's on paper it becomes much easier to edit and play with and you know how that doesn't sound right and we'll actually re reword it.

18:36.22
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah.

18:49.63
Bridget Willard
Yeah.

18:51.65
Robert Nissenbaum
Even without a whole lot of skill. Um and the other thing is to you know, stop using specific words that you always use. Find another word or phrase or a way to say something so you're mixing that piece of it up. I mean I've written articles where it's like okay, don't use certain words or don't use certain letters in me.

18:57.95
Bridget Willard
Yes.

19:11.12
Robert Nissenbaum
And writing if you can't write a you know a hundred word paragraph without using the letter "a" sort of thing right.

19:19.58
Bridget Willard
Yeah I was reviewing your tweets just to like get my head back into the Robert Nissenbaum world and you hit the two points I was hoping you would hit -- which is if you use your jargon define it and write every day. And I believe it was you

19:31.00
Robert Nissenbaum
Right.

19:37.31
Bridget Willard
who showed me that quote from Ernest Hemingway, "write drunk; edit sober." Get it out. Get it out of your head because Grammarly can always help you. Right?

19:40.19
Robert Nissenbaum
Yeah, yeah, there's always once content's out there. You can actually do something with it. It's kind of hard to work with nothing.

19:52.50
Bridget Willard
Yes, so even if a business owner hires a writer. They're gonna need some partnership with the business owner right?

19:58.44
Robert Nissenbaum
And then they have a couple of options if one of them is to hire somebody to write the articles for them or get them core articles that they can work from or otherwise it's to basically did their own brain dump. Right.

20:13.27
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:16.80
Robert Nissenbaum
Send anything you have anything you can think of on the topic or if you were just writing this and then send it to me send it to you send it to somebody who can actually do something with it then.

20:23.77
Bridget Willard
Yeah, yeah, that's a great tip. Wow! Thank you for your time. Ah how can people find you? How do you want to be found on the internet?

20:32.72
Robert Nissenbaum
Um, um, the the easiest way to find me the website is TSO.media um and that'll get to my content and writin.g personal website that if people are looking for which is more of my own writing and the kayaking stuff that you brought up is going to be Robert or excuse me. Yeah, it.

20:38.62
Bridget Willard
Okay, yes.

20:52.70
Robert Nissenbaum
RNissenbaum.com

20:57.80
Bridget Willard
Awesome! Thank you so much for being on the show I'm just so excited. You're always full of great ideas and wisdom. Practical wisdom and very concise.

21:07.71
Robert Nissenbaum
Thank you appreciate it and and always fun to chat with you.